Presiding Bishop of The Redeemed Evangelical Mission (TREM), Mike Okonkwo, has lent his voice to the growing concern in some quartets about the possibility of Nigeria relapsing into a party state, following the recent defections from the opposition parties to the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC).
In this interview with DAILY POST, the octogenarian cleric spoke on a wide range of issues about the country’s leadership, the role of the church leaders and what those in power are expected to do among others
At 80, what are your concerns for the country? Are we on the right path?
To be honest with you, I’m totally disappointed. I feel embarrassed and I’ve said it in many places that how can we have this number of churches in the country, this number of gatherings; big gatherings and we are still in this kind of a mess.
The church has failed. Most men of God are not preaching the gospel but their opinions. I don’t think there’s any place in the world that would have such a number of Christian gatherings like we have in this country. Prayer times and all the stuff but there is nothing to show for it. Is there any place where God has raised dynamic, strong leadership in church like in this country? Yet, our nation is the way it is.
It embarrasses me as a leader in the body of Christ and so, the country is not where it should be. I mean, our political leaders have learnt nothing. They used to say the military destroyed everything but now that we are in charge, what have we done? A politician comes into office today, what he’s thinking about is the next election. And so, what does he do? He doesn’t care about performance not knowing that when you perform, the masses will beg you to run. When you give them the basic things they need; the dividends of democracy, they will beg you to run again. Is it not a shame that a politician will make a road and put a borehole and paint the road and all that and we are clapping? Clapping for what? What is his job as a politician? So, really, we’ve done nothing and not that there is any difficulty in doing what we should do.
I don’t believe there is any difficulty. I just think there is no willpower to do it because all it takes to provide good governance is to restructure the country. Put the country in such a way that it is on a level playing ground for anyone from any part of Nigeria; from any tribe to aspire to any office in the country without being afraid. Put things in place. Somebody recently was having an interview and telling us how much it will cost to run for different offices.
It will cost this billion of Naira to run for this one. It will cost this billion for that office. And I said eh, with this type of thing, you people want a new Nigeria; it will never happen because if it will cost me billions to run for one office, won’t I look for the money when I get there? I must look for my money.
And so, why can’t we put things in place so that it will not cost such a humongous amount of money for somebody to run for an office so that you get credible people into the office? Is it that there are no credible people who are brilliant? What are we doing? Look at Burkina Faso of yesterday. Burkina Faso of yesterday that is like a backyard for us in Nigeria, what are we doing? We are not there. And let me tell you, it will take a long time because we are playing politics with people’s lives. That’s what it is. We are just playing politics.
Verydarkman was showing a video about people who were burnt alive. Children burnt alive somewhere in the north; burnt alive in Nigeria. In developed countries, this will occupy a front burner in their parliament. Every other thing will become secondary until there is a solution.
That’s what happens in developed countries; any little thing that affects the masses, their national assembly or their congress will shut down until they find a solution. But here, we don’t care; no one cares about any person. Somebody enters, becomes a counselor and the next thing, he is building a mansion. Where did he get the money from? You don’t want to talk about our politics.
Let me tell you, our politics requires drastic surgery. It’s not about individuals or parties. It’s not that. It requires a drastic surgery. And I don’t know. I just pray God will give us a leader that will have the willpower to perform this surgery for us. That’s where we are, unfortunately.
The future of Nigeria depends on the leaders. What’s your message to the leaders in Nigeria?
At the end of the day, leaders have failed to understand that they are a sowing seed that will germinate in the future.
If we think about legacy, there are things we would not do as leaders. So far, leaders have destroyed young people for nothing. I wouldn’t blame the youths. What do you want them to do? They struggle, go to school, come out of school, nothing. And you still want them to be morally upright. The only way it can happen is God.
That’s the only way, because human beings have failed them. And that’s why the church has a lot of responsibilities, to ensure that, look, whatever you can do for young people, do it for them, so that they will be able to stand no matter where they find themselves and hold their own in any part of the world.
Otherwise, if they are to follow the example they are seeing outside, I can guarantee you, there will be no future. So, church has plenty to do, you see.
There’s so much noise and outcry concerning 2027. What is your advice to the political parties and the actors starting from Mr. President down to the governors, the national assembly members and other actors in the political space?
You know, the way I see it is that we are having misplaced priorities and I’m not just saying it for this government, I’m saying it generally in our political structure. Misplaced priority in the sense that once we come to office, we are thinking of the next election rather than governance. Take Alex Otti, for instance, it will be difficult to unseat him. Are you following me? Why? Because the man came on board and attacked the real problems of the people.
Honestly, if you go to Aba to talk against Alex Otti, they will stone you. He doesn’t need to come out; he will stay in his house in Umuahia. He will not say anything, they will kill you because there is evidence of performance and that is all that is needed. Our political leaders don’t need any of these drama and manipulations and all these stress by heating up the politics.
Go and perform and voting for you will be easy. Nigerians are easy to please. They are not looking for you to go and give them the moon. Just give them level playing ground.
We are resilient people, we work hard. Give me level playing ground and I will hustle for myself. That’s all they are asking for and that’s why I don’t understand Mr. President, who has gone through a lot of struggles and who said he is a progressive and knew the challenges he went through before he eventually emerged president. With all the mud thrown at him, with all the name callings, with all that, he doesn’t have a certificate, he doesn’t have a mother and father, he doesn’t have this and that, yet he is our president, whether you like it or not.
Listen, the day I will see him, I will say, what is stopping you from leaving a legacy that will put an end to the shenanigans going on in the polity? Reform the country. Put it in a place where anyone in this country can aspire to any office. Put the country in a place where no region will hold anyone to ransom. Unless you go through me, I will not be president. Why?
Why should you be the final say on who becomes president? For me, I don’t agree with that. Structure is there, let the structure speak for itself. Complete reform, Nigeria will remember him for life.
Are you following? All those bad history and records about him, no one will remember them again. You will only remember him as a man that was bold to tear down all those things that have been retrogressive to the progress of this country.
Ahead of 2027, politicians have started their usual alignments and realignments to gain political advantage over their opponents. With the spate of defections going on now, do you think we are moving towards a one party state as many are speculating? Is it possible?
Listen, Nigeria is too multifaceted. Let me tell you, anyone who attempts it, there will be an implosion in that party. It can never be.
Forget about all that is going on, it can’t be. It cannot work in our clime, more so when people have become enlightened. It’s not like before when there is no information going on; it will not happen. Let them forget it. It’s all joke. So, that cannot happen. One party system is impossible. Even the people in that party are already fighting. Is it not Nigerian politics? The people in the ruling party have their own agenda, so forget that. I am not even thinking along that line.
There is a new trend about dressing nowadays. Is the church losing its values just to keep members in?
Christianity is not about what you wear. Unfortunately, some people will argue it. That does not give license for inappropriate dressing. There is proper dressing and there is inappropriate dressing.
For instance, I would not want to leave my house naked all in the name of dressing. I would consider it inappropriate, do you understand? So, there is inappropriate dressing and there is proper dressing. But to say that until I cover my hair, that’s when God will answer me, I don’t agree with that. That’s why I talked about inappropriate dressing. There is no standard that is lower.
Some may have lower standards. But I think it’s strictly on the fact that we have not concentrated on the hearts of the people. We are looking at them outwardly. It’s a changed heart that changes behaviour. It’s what is in your heart that you are going to manifest.
So, I am in agreement with you that the church has not lived up to expectations. The church has failed in the sense that we were busy concentrating on outward appearance and not inward. But, God looks at the heart because if the heart is not changed, the outward will not change.
Most politicians belong to one church or the other. How does the church hold them accountable?
Who are those stealing money in the government? James, John, Martha, Mary. They are the people; they go to our churches and that’s the truth.
I agree with you. And so, that puts a lot of responsibilities at the doorstep of the church to go and re-examine what we are preaching. Truth be told, many churches are not preaching the gospel. They are preaching their opinions.
What is the gospel? Death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. All of us are sinners headed for hell and that the wages of sin is death; eternal death. And that if you fail to receive Christ into your life, you will end up in hell. But, the good news is that Christ has already paid even before you were born. Will you accept his offer? So, that is why God will not be blamed for anyone who goes to hell.
He is not telling you to pay any price for your sin. He said, ‘I have paid.’ It’s a question of whether you receive it. So, many people are preaching earring.
When you go to church, instead of preaching Christ, you are preaching: ‘stop wearing earring. You are a sinner. You fornicated yesterday. You drank alcohol.’ Let me ask you, what will that do to the person? What change will it bring? You think that by telling me I’m fornicating, I’m committing adultery, I’m stealing; it will change me? It won’t change me because I already know what I am doing; you are not telling me any new thing. It is when you give me the solution, that it is the gospel. And so, what do we preach? Unfortunately, it’s ignorance, lack of training, lack of understanding of the Bible. Most of our churches preach sin, rather than righteousness. We are preaching sin to the people.
We are preaching their crimes to them. We are preaching their evil to them. See, the scripture says, as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is. So, you are telling me what I know. You are further empowering me. That’s all. It doesn’t change me. I may cry. I may roll on the floor. But I will still get up and go back to what I’m doing. The scripture says in the book of Romans 1:16-17, ‘I am not ashamed of the gospel.’
Paul was a religious man. He said if you read this letter, if it’s about religion, I’m the first, the number one religious man. He said, but I came into an encounter with Christ. So, he says, I’m not ashamed to preach this man. I’m not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. It is the power of God unto salvation.
That’s the power that saves. So, many of us, I agree, and I’ve said it in many places, are not preaching Christ. We are preaching all manner of things.
Come and receive a miracle. Come and receive healing. Come and receive… After that, what happens? How has it affected your lifestyle? You see. So, that’s where we are.
At 80, is age still just a number as you said when you clocked 70?
Listen, there comes a time when age will set in; it is a natural phenomenon otherwise we are going to live on this earth forever. You can’t be as strong as you were when you were much younger. There are things you want to do but your strength cannot carry you to do them as you used to. You want to stand, you cannot. You want to do this or that, you cannot.
Of course that is natural. Some preachers have told a lot of lies. Some said they don’t take medication but that is not true. They all go for medical checkup and other things and people believe them. Some people just die for nothing because of what they hear on the pulpit.
